Ladies & Gentlemen - this thread is THISCLOSE to going bye-bye!!! Tone it down and be nice or I'll lock it down!!! This is your first and last warning!!!
soren wrote: Mike, I get the feeling that we could live to be 100 and never be quite as "informed" as this guy. Some things are unworthy of a response. Best to let this "information" pass. Hopefully, a few more folks figure it out before they end up in a pile of bodies and twisted metal. Soft sprung, short wheel-based, passenger tire shod, "soccer mom" mobiles are a hardly an ideal choice for a very large, long and heavy TT. To say that it is just as safe as a one ton dually is absolutely ridiculous and has no basis in reality. Any tow combination can end up in a wreck. However, the margin of error and the ability to recover from unanticipated inputs, like sway, are much greater is a heavier vehicle with the suspension, tires and wheelbase to handle it. There is a reason why the delivery professionals hauling from factories to dealers typically drive long wheelbase duallys, and typically run without distribution or sway control. Try the same thing with a Durango or Expedition. Then report back.
Where did I say that? I said the trailer in this wreck was of sufficient size that the series of mistakes could have just as easily taken out the dually.
Suspension is augmented by the WDH, tires can be changed to LT, and wheelbase is a wash 90% of the time due to shorter overhang yielding the same leverage ratio. That argument does not hold water.
Sure a larger truck can tow a larger trailer compared to a smaller truck, so what? You miss the point, 9K CAN and WILL wag the dog (dually) should the driver make a mistake. I guess it all depends on your level of comfort (perceived), maybe some of us should just stay home?
This tragic accident likely was preventable but there are also many rigs out there that could just as easily get into the same situation. I almost hate to comment since we have so little information but I have seen a few items on the other thread that I thought I might be able to clarify a little. We have no idea what hitch system was in use or how well it was adjusted but even the best conventional hitch would be hard pressed to make this combination stable.
I have some doubts about the information from the officer on the scene. It has been reported that the Smith’s trailer weighed 8000 pounds plus its load. They certainly did not weigh it as there is nothing left to weigh so the officer likely found the VIN label and is assuming that the 8000 pounds listed there is the empty weight. I wonder also if it was really 35’ long, very few people tow a 35’ stick and tin trailer. So the trailer was likely about a 30’ with a 6000 lb. dry weight and 8000 loaded. Still as it was a 2004 it likely had a slide-out so it had a high centre of gravity and it probably had a leaf spring suspension and odds are it had no shocks. Not an overly stable towing trailer. The same trailer sitting 8” lower with shocks or independent suspension would be substantially more stable. It is not just the weight that matters, a 10,000 pound trailer with a low centre of gravity, great suspension and perfect balance will easily out handle a 5000 pound trailer with the opposite. Even a badly balanced hard top sitting on a ball can toss around a 6000 pound tow vehicle like it was a toy.
The vast majority of people purchasing an SUV are not buying it for the handling, if it is handling you want you would purchase something with a lower centre of gravity, since the SUV is never going to handle extremely well no matter what you do to it you might as well make it comfortable so they get mushy tires, soft springs and medium shock dampening, that is what the market demands for it to sell. The previous generation of Durango was a pretty stiffly sprung not bad handling vehicle, it had a pretty good tire and wheel combination with LT tires but it did not sell well against the softer boulevard cruisers of other brands. When the Durango was redesigned the ride was softened considerably, and guess what until recently it sold quite well. For most SUV purchasers the tow rating is important “because they may tow with it some day” and it is as likely as not a boat or a cargo trailer etc they are thinking of but few will actually tow anything substantial long distances, even though they put some importance on the tow rating. A high tow rating also adds to the image of toughness that sells SUV’s.
Now Mr Smith when he went to purchase a vehicle did not likely care about the ride that much or the image, he was looking for a vehicle that had 3 rows of seats and a rating to tow his trailer. Though some vehicles with lower ratings are substantially more stable he like many people would do the natural thing and focus on the tow rating. In the end he connected a poor handling tow vehicle to a poor handling trailer and it likely did not drive that well. Many people drive poor handling combinations because they think that is a normal part of towing and don’t realize it could be better. We do at least 1000 test drives a year, the comment I hear all the time often from people that have towed for years is “I did not realize a trailer could tow so well”. Mr Smith was a bus driver and his combination likely felt as good as a city bus but he did not realize how close to the limits of control he was.
When the trailer started to sway going down the hill being an experienced driver who has likely driven busses in all kinds winter weather he would have instinctively turned the steering wheel to counteract the sway. The sensation of a trailer swaying violently is very similar to the feel of the back of a vehicle sliding on snow. When that happens on snow you back off the gas and turn the wheel in the direction the back end is sliding if you drive a lot on snow it happens automatically you don’t even think about it. Unfortunately when towing it is the worst thing to do. Since your reaction time has a delay you will be turning to counteract the sway just about the time the trailer heads in the opposite direction so you add to the sway. Suddenly the forces are happening the other way so you spin the wheel back the opposite way but guess what, too late again and you just drive the trailer deeper into a sway. The best thing you can do is hold the wheel steady and put on the trailer brakes alone and if you have the nerve a little throttle won’t hurt.
For a trailer to sway the mass of the trailer is traveling faster than the tow vehicle so you have to get energy out of the trailer but not the tow vehicle but it takes a lot of discipline to take your hand off the wheel and grab the brake control.
If you are going to have floor level slide-out in a trailer then it has to sit higher for the slide to clear the top of the tires. If you are towing one of these on expressways over long distances I urge you to consider a Hensley, Pro Pride or Pull Rite hitch. If your trailer has no shocks and bias ply tires, toss the tires, install Travel Trailer or Preferably Light Truck Radial tires and add shocks.
I fishtailed and flipped a trailer many years ago near Luckenhach, TX. A deer darted out in front of me and I swerved and braked. Once the trailer starts swaying from side to side, each sway and correction aggravates the situation. I solved the problem by buying and installing a 3-button hand controller on the steering wheel. It wires in with the brake controller and the green/yellow/red buttons apply different levels of braking directly to the trailer brakes. Each button will lock in place and press to release, or just tap and briefly hold. A company in Canada manufactored them but I think the man died a few years ago and they're no longer availble at that location. I've never seen them anywhere else and I treasuremine.
'99 E-350 HiTop Companion Van Conversion SD 7.3, factory order rcvd Dec. '98: SuperChip, twin K&N air filters, 203* mod, Deraler tubed trannie pan, B&M trannie cooler, AirLift air bags, Bilsteins, 4" DiamondEye turbo back exhaust.
When I had my sway incident going to Fort Myers, TV-Trailblazer, TT-19ft, brakes but no WD or Friction bar.
As a rig was passing me, going down a slight incline, plus this section of rutted interstate, made my trailer pop out of a rut on one side, come acroos the rut again started the sway.
The rig saw me in his mirror, slowed down so I would pass him....he then drove in the middle of the two lane highway and stopped all other traffic as I was now swaying uncontrolable left ot right fast and furious heading to the right hand shoulder ditch which was a 15 -20ft drop into swamp.
Tried to remove one hand to grab the controller and counter steer with the other.....my DW has both hands and finger nails clinched into the dash in front of her.....my two DD in the back were laughing ther heads off cause they thought I was doing it on purpose.
Tried to accelrate out of it while trying to grab the brake controller....no luck
Now I'm 3 ft from one more sway over the shoulder to the swamp....
Both feet.....slam on the brakes.....trailer grabbed first....which pulled or somewhat straighten out the tow.....the TV then finished the job of stopping the 3500lb trailer.
Traffic was complete stopped behind me ...must of been half a mile back.
DW looked at me, I looked at her....said she never saw me that white in her life!!!!
Kids still laughing....I check my mirror and start pulling away as a rest area ramp was 500ft away.
Pulled in, went and changed my shorts....went to check on the trailer outside and in.
The inside looked like a tornado went through it....evrything and anything was lying everywhere....complete disaster.
I just towed 1500km with no woories or problems leading upto what just happened. Trailer was properly loaded and this was my second trip south doing everything the same.
Everyone should be prepared for and event such as this.
I was very lucky, and really take setup serious when towing anything,
like everybody should.
Please be safe ...to all!
Any camping is good camping!
DH & DW , DD x 2
2008 Salem 27RB LTD
Yukon XL 1500 5.3SLT
Prodigy BC, DC Reese WD, Scan Gauge II
Days camped in 2008 -34-
All packed away for the season....
I am assuming you have weight distribution and a sway control now? You don't need to say who but did a dealer tell you that you could tow a 19' just on the ball?
Hi Clev
Those steering wheel brake units were made by a customer of ours in the 80's. They worked quite well and were also handy for putting on a little brake going down a hill. I still see one once in a while.
Warner used to build a brake control that clamped on the brake pedal it worked very well. We used to install a hydralic control for automatic operation and then mount the warner control on the fire wall where you could hit it with your left foot. It accomplised the same thing. Alas they no longer build the warner control either.
I am assuming you have weight distribution and a sway control now? You don't need to say who but did a dealer tell you that you could tow a 19' just on the ball?
Hi Clev
Those steering wheel brake units were made by a customer of ours in the 80's. They worked quite well and were also handy for putting on a little brake going down a hill. I still see one once in a while.
Warner used to build a brake control that clamped on the brake pedal it worked very well. We used to install a hydralic control for automatic operation and then mount the warner control on the fire wall where you could hit it with your left foot. It accomplised the same thing. Alas they no longer build the warner control either.
Andy
I've been using the warner clamp on brake controller on three different trailers for over 30 years along with a trailer brake ammeter shown below and it will be a sad day when I have to replace them since as you stated neither are made anymore. It's great to check the condition of the brake wiring since each magnet draws 3 Amps. I can get around 9A on just the TT brakes w/o activating my TV brakes.
This is the brake controller I have been using since 1974. It slips on the brake pedal and you vary the amount of brakes applied by whether you put more pressure on the top (more brakes) or the bottom (less brakes) much like a sewing machine speed pedal works.
Side view of my brake controller showing the c-clamp that slips over the brake pedal. The hinged side in at the bottom of the controller in this picture.
This is a close up view of my towing dashpod that has my trailer brake ammeter on the left and my trailer level indicator on the right. It simply sits on the dash and plugs in so it can be removed when I'm not towing. The trailer level indicator tells me how many inches I need to raise which side of the trailer to make it level.
Larry
2001 standard box 7.3L E-350 PSD Van with 4.10 rear and 2007 Holiday Rambler Aluma-Lite 8306S Been RV'ing since 1974. TRAILER MODS
The warner control is a very simple durable design and it will last for years as long as you remove it for the winter. The salt off your shoes tends to corrode the interior of the control.
There is a small screw on each side, if you remove them you can hinge it open all the way and clean out the inside. I would not use anything strong just damp cloth works well.
Quote: I have some doubts about the information from the officer on the scene. It has been reported that the Smith’s trailer weighed 8000 pounds plus its load. They certainly did not weigh it as there is nothing left to weigh so the officer likely found the VIN label and is assuming that the 8000 pounds listed there is the empty weight. I wonder also if it was really 35’ long, very few people tow a 35’ stick and tin trailer. So the trailer was likely about a 30’ with a 6000 lb. dry weight and 8000 loaded. Still as it was a 2004 it likely had a slide-out so it had a high centre of gravity and it probably had a leaf spring suspension and odds are it had no shocks. Not an overly stable towing trailer. The same trailer sitting 8” lower with shocks or independent suspension would be substantially more stable. It is not just the weight that matters, a 10,000 pound trailer with a low centre of gravity, great suspension and perfect balance will easily out handle a 5000 pound trailer with the opposite. Even a badly balanced hard top sitting on a ball can toss around a 6000 pound tow vehicle like it was a toy.
The vast majority of people purchasing an SUV are not buying it for the handling, if it is handling you want you would purchase something with a lower centre of gravity, since the SUV is never going to handle extremely well no matter what you do to it you might as well make it comfortable so they get mushy tires, soft springs and medium shock dampening, that is what the market demands for it to sell. The previous generation of Durango was a pretty stiffly sprung not bad handling vehicle, it had a pretty good tire and wheel combination with LT tires but it did not sell well against the softer boulevard cruisers of other brands. When the Durango was redesigned the ride was softened considerably, and guess what until recently it sold quite well. For most SUV purchasers the tow rating is important “because they may tow with it some day” and it is as likely as not a boat or a cargo trailer etc they are thinking of but few will actually tow anything substantial long distances, even though they put some importance on the tow rating. A high tow rating also adds to the image of toughness that sells SUV’s.
Now Mr Smith when he went to purchase a vehicle did not likely care about the ride that much or the image, he was looking for a vehicle that had 3 rows of seats and a rating to tow his trailer. Though some vehicles with lower ratings are substantially more stable he like many people would do the natural thing and focus on the tow rating. In the end he connected a poor handling tow vehicle to a poor handling trailer and it likely did not drive that well. Many people drive poor handling combinations because they think that is a normal part of towing and don’t realize it could be better. We do at least 1000 test drives a year, the comment I hear all the time often from people that have towed for years is “I did not realize a trailer could tow so well”. Mr Smith was a bus driver and his combination likely felt as good as a city bus but he did not realize how close to the limits of control he was.
When the trailer started to sway going down the hill being an experienced driver who has likely driven busses in all kinds winter weather he would have instinctively turned the steering wheel to counteract the sway. The sensation of a trailer swaying violently is very similar to the feel of the back of a vehicle sliding on snow. When that happens on snow you back off the gas and turn the wheel in the direction the back end is sliding if you drive a lot on snow it happens automatically you don’t even think about it. Unfortunately when towing it is the worst thing to do. Since your reaction time has a delay you will be turning to counteract the sway just about the time the trailer heads in the opposite direction so you add to the sway. Suddenly the forces are happening the other way so you spin the wheel back the opposite way but guess what, too late again and you just drive the trailer deeper into a sway. The best thing you can do is hold the wheel steady and put on the trailer brakes alone and if you have the nerve a little throttle won’t hurt.
For a trailer to sway the mass of the trailer is traveling faster than the tow vehicle so you have to get energy out of the trailer but not the tow vehicle but it takes a lot of discipline to take your hand off the wheel and grab the brake control.
If you are going to have floor level slide-out in a trailer then it has to sit higher for the slide to clear the top of the tires. If you are towing one of these on expressways over long distances I urge you to consider a Hensley, Pro Pride or Pull Rite hitch. If your trailer has no shocks and bias ply tires, toss the tires, install Travel Trailer or Preferably Light Truck Radial tires and add shocks.
I hope this helps.
Andy Thomson
I knew half way through all these assumptions this was going to end with a plug for the Hensley!!!!! I am not saying you are wrong, but you are simply guessing, I will take the word of the officer over somebody on a onternet forum who wasn't even at the scene of the accident!!! The officer isn't going to report the TT weighed 8K if he couldn't back it up. This wasn't some Mt Airy, Barny Five cop, it was a State Trooper trained to investigate these types of accidents. I am sure he located something, more than lokely the sticker from the cabinet door, that indicated the dry weight of the vehicle. If not it isn't hard to retrieve this info with one call to the manufacturer. Maybe my 1 ton dually and supperior driving skills could have prevented this accident,( lol!!), maybe a $3,000 hitch could have prevented it, maybe if the driver didn't spill his coffee in his lap, these are all assumptions and do little to prove what actually happened. The fact is a family has lost several key members and is grieving, and another fact is plain and simple this trailer was to large for a Durango, no matter the tires, spring or hitch!! I think this one is about to be closed as it sure isn't going anywhere productive from here.
I'm checking out of this one.
NCH
2000 Ford F350 4X4 PSD,CC, DRW
4:10's, BTM Muffler, Isspro Gauges,
Coolant Filter,CCV Mod
FTVB , Ford AIS
6.0 Cooler,SCT2 W/DP's 40 tow & 80 econo,Zoodad mod
2005 Keystone Hornet 30BHSS
Reese Dual Cam
Family of 4 saved by Grace!!! MY TRUCK OUR TRAILER
My heart and prayers go out to the family. We lost our only grandson 19-year-old Marine Lance Cpl. Adam Kaiser 31 months ago in Iraq. It has been the worst thing that our whole family has had to cope with.
But losing 3 members of your family as they did in this accident has to be much worse. One thing that helps us is that Adam’s dream since he was 10 years old was to become a Marine so he died doing what he loved to do. This family has nothing like that to fall back on.
‘03 Ford 350 PSD Lariat 4X4 25,400 miles
‘08 Jayco Feather 25F 230 miles
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